Ironic, but because I read the comments on Williams’ column this morning, I discovered that TML is available on Substack. I signed up, looking forward to catching up.
I am sure that the Enquirer is getting far fewer clicks since you retired. I know that I am not the only reader who does not go back to the Enquirer’s website several times during the day (once is enough) to check the comments on your column.
Hope all is well in retirement. I am close to joining you there.
Despite the arrival of snow and cold weather, I enjoyed the Bengals bye week. I realized how much time I waste every week watching the NFL. Bengals at 1pm, get sucked in for the 4pm games, stay for the NBC night game... Delay of life - what a true and great line!
Thanks for laying it out there for us Doc. You used the word "petty" in your essay. I'll be using it too. Please read on.
Regarding for his status with MLB, he gambled, he lost. Commissioner Giamatti summed it up, "One of the games greatest players has engaged in a variety of acts which have stained the game and he must now live with the consequences of these acts." He has lived with those consequences and I don't expect he'll get the pardon he seeks. He's out.
I don't think Pete cares as much about baseball as much as he does the HOF spotlight and the earning potential being enshrined there would mean for him.He has always said he loves baseball and his ban kept him from making a living. But since 1989, when the MLB ban took effect, not once did we ever hear a peep about Pete seeking or being turned down for a job in baseball. I don't mean MLB, I mean college or high school or even one of his kids' Little League teams. Many men have played professional ball and have upon retirement taken jobs at the amateur level. College baseball coaches include former players Chris Sabo, Troy Percival, Lance Berkman, Darin Erstad et al. Football notables include HOFer Deion Sanders and (included) Jeff Saturday. If Pete loved and wanted to be connected the sport as much as he says he does, he could have easily had one of those jobs. Who knows, perhaps if he had "reconfigured his life" in this way it would have looked pretty good on the resume he's now handing to Commissioner Manfred. Instead, he's wasted the last 33 years doing little more than signing autographs.
However, Pete's HOF ban was perpetrated by the BBWAA Board of Directors. aka baseball writers. I imagine many of those same scribes got a good column or two about Pete's play over the course his storied career. The man loved to talk baseball and it's certain he provided them some colorful quotes. But those guys didn't want him in their club. It's their private club and they have the right to keep him out. As you mentioned Doc, his exclusion never seemed justified given all the other flawed men who they did allow in. Eighteen months after his ban from baseball they made a resolution especially for Rose and passed Rule 3(E) in February 1991. They didn't have to do it. His lifetime ban from MLB wasn't enough for them so they did something I consider spiteful and petty. They piled on. They kicked the guy when he was down.
I was 8 years old in 1963, the year Pete won Rookie of the Year. He was a local hero. By the time I turned 20 in 1975, he was a god. By 1989, when it all ended for him and I was a father of two, he was a mess. I grew up loving this guy and since I'm from Cincinnati's West Side too, felt a special connection. Most of those around here who knew him, loved watching him play but saw that apart from baseball he was at sea. As he is today.
For all the years we had watching this most entertaining player do his thing, for all the thrills, all the hits and the hustle, the BBWAA should right their wrong and let him in.
I boycotted baseball when they changed the rules to keep him out of the Hall - I could always forgive his lack of character and his gambling because he was the most exciting player I ever saw. After he admitted to statutory rape I can no longer support him and have gone back to watching baseball
Nope, broke the Single Rule posted in every clubhouse,serial liar,sociopath?,,was she really only 14 ? Or 16 as Pete claims?, sport is better off without Pete,useful as object lesson is his maximum value
Nice take, Doc. I too have struggled trying to connect Pete the quintessential baseball player and Pete with his failures nearly everywhere else in life. But regarding Cooperstown, could it be this simple: Pete the baseball player is eligible for the Hall, while Pete the Manager retains a lifetime ban. Would this allow both MLB and Pete to claim victory?
This is a golden opportunity for Rob Manfred, right now, and the game of baseball — a game that used to be the national pastime but has now seen football, basketball and even soccer overtake it in popularity.
Want to get MLB front and center on ESPN and the newspapers, smack dab in the middle of the NFL and college football season? Reinstate Pete Rose. It’ll be news for weeks, as it will spawn stories and opinion pieces galore.
Want to gain back fans MLB might have lost with canceled seasons, strikes and the like? Reinstate Pete Rose. Many of those fans likely followed him as a player, and feel as many do that he’s served his penance.
Want to reverse your legacy as a ineffectual, staid, hypocritical and horrible commissioner? Reinstate Pete Rose. Become a forgiving, feeling and empathetic commissioner, and create a whole new legacy. Earn MLB fans just through the act of forgiveness.
In other words, Manfred has a marketing opportunity here — in reinstating Rose — that would actually benefit him, and baseball, much more than it would Rose. And, actually, would strip Rose of a lot of his current notoriety in the process.
He’d be a fool not to do it.
He’s also a fool if he thinks current players and coaches aren’t using spouses, girlfriends, friends, family members, etc., to place bets on games now through apps like Draft Kings, BetMGM, Barstool Sports and the like. There’s no longer the need for bookies as intermediaries … simply find yourself a family member in Indiana, New Jersey, soon Ohio, etc., where sports betting is legal, and have them place the bet on the app under their account. If you are naive enough to think that’s not happening now, in all sports, then I don’t know what to tell ya.
Manfred’s got nothing to lose by reinstating Rose. And if the writers or HOF committee end up not putting Rose in the HOF, then Manfred can wash his hands of it and say, “look, I gave him the opportunity. The HOF decision was not up to me,” and walk away still smelling like a rose.
If I’m MLB marketing right now, this is what I’m telling him.
As far as my personal thoughts on Rose and reinstatement? I say let him in, but if he doesn’t, life will go on and this debate will continue probably long after we’re all gone.
Pete was my sports hero growing up. I was 10 years old when my Dad took me to the famous All Star game that he ended by bowling over Ray Fosse to win the game in extra innings. I was in the stands for his hit # 3000 and with my Dad and my best friend for hit #4192. My daughter's middle name is Rose. So it took a lot for me turn away from supporting him. But all of the lies, and all of his wanting only to make money off of the whole thing finally did me in. The biggest irony and hypocrisy is that he is banned for betting on baseball, but such bets are now legal in many MLB stadiums, including the Red's...as baseball now profits from the same gambling. Pete should be in the Hall of Fame, and recognized for his baseball career, but shouldn't be idolized or even respected as a person
Pete Rose is the most tragic sports figure in the history of Cincinnati and one of the most tragic in the history of professional sports. If you came on the scene in the late 80's, you missed the impression he made on a young generation of Cincinnatians in the 60's and 70's, hitting and hustling his way to pennants and World Series championships in his hometown. Based strictly on his play, no one deserves to be in the hall more than Pete Rose. He personifies baseball.
But he hung out with a bunch of slugs and he bet on baseball. No excuses; the rules are on the clubhouse wall. However, It should matter that Pete only bet on the Reds to win, never to lose. He never "threw" a game, a la the Chicago Black Sox. If he lost, he lost the bet but the outcome of the game was not changed. He committed an egregious and intolerable violation, but it did not harm others. One could reason that he has served sufficient time for his actions. He did not throw a game.
Baseball has no right to tell a man how to live after baseball, but in the court of public opinion, Rose's remorse could be taken more seriously if it were accompanied by some effort to reform. He may see the error in his ways but he has made no effort to change. He won't. Instead he begs for forgiveness and signs a deal to place the first bet at the Hard Rock Casino. Mind-numbingly tragic. Will Rob Manfred set aside Rose's lifestyle? If he is to find a path to forgiveness, he must consider only Rose's violation and subsequent lying and determine if he has served enough time for his transgressions. Continued punishment based solely on Pete's lifestyle is not justified. As distasteful as it is, Pete's lifestyle since leaving baseball has no bearing on his actions as the Reds manager.
In the end, baseball and its fans are the losers. For 30 plus years baseball has missed the contribution of one it's iconic legends. Imagine how much more interesting baseball would have been if Rose was involved as a manager or a commentator during that time. No one talks baseball like Pete Rose. Thankfully we got to experience the class act and splendid commentary of Joe Morgan.
This is a messy situation. It's human, and it's tragic. And the time has come to put it behind us. Unabashedly, Rose just wants to get into the HOF before he dies. And baseball, with warts of its own, should decide that one of it's greatest stars has served his time and let him in, with all his imperfection.
Doc, I recall you doing an article and some video with him a few years back where you visited his childhood home and the baseball fields he grew up on etc. Curious how/if that 1:1 kind of experience might have changed your opinion of him before and after? Side note- I remember the question of who dresses you/picks out your outfits being my favorite part of that!
I fully agree with you. This is a vendetta by MLB against Rose. He was blamed for Giamatti's early death by Dowd and his friends. In football Josh Shaw got suspended 21 games for betting on football. Rose was suspended 33 years and counting. Rose has a gambling addiction just like a number of baseball players had drug addictions. Baseball got them help and then reinstated them, some multiple times. I would never try to defend Rose's private life but when you pair it with some of the members of the Hall it is comparable.
P Doc,
Ironic, but because I read the comments on Williams’ column this morning, I discovered that TML is available on Substack. I signed up, looking forward to catching up.
I am sure that the Enquirer is getting far fewer clicks since you retired. I know that I am not the only reader who does not go back to the Enquirer’s website several times during the day (once is enough) to check the comments on your column.
Hope all is well in retirement. I am close to joining you there.
Mark Scherzinger
If the Hit King isn’t in the HALL OF FAME it doesn’t exist as far as I’m concerned
Despite the arrival of snow and cold weather, I enjoyed the Bengals bye week. I realized how much time I waste every week watching the NFL. Bengals at 1pm, get sucked in for the 4pm games, stay for the NBC night game... Delay of life - what a true and great line!
Thanks for laying it out there for us Doc. You used the word "petty" in your essay. I'll be using it too. Please read on.
Regarding for his status with MLB, he gambled, he lost. Commissioner Giamatti summed it up, "One of the games greatest players has engaged in a variety of acts which have stained the game and he must now live with the consequences of these acts." He has lived with those consequences and I don't expect he'll get the pardon he seeks. He's out.
I don't think Pete cares as much about baseball as much as he does the HOF spotlight and the earning potential being enshrined there would mean for him.He has always said he loves baseball and his ban kept him from making a living. But since 1989, when the MLB ban took effect, not once did we ever hear a peep about Pete seeking or being turned down for a job in baseball. I don't mean MLB, I mean college or high school or even one of his kids' Little League teams. Many men have played professional ball and have upon retirement taken jobs at the amateur level. College baseball coaches include former players Chris Sabo, Troy Percival, Lance Berkman, Darin Erstad et al. Football notables include HOFer Deion Sanders and (included) Jeff Saturday. If Pete loved and wanted to be connected the sport as much as he says he does, he could have easily had one of those jobs. Who knows, perhaps if he had "reconfigured his life" in this way it would have looked pretty good on the resume he's now handing to Commissioner Manfred. Instead, he's wasted the last 33 years doing little more than signing autographs.
However, Pete's HOF ban was perpetrated by the BBWAA Board of Directors. aka baseball writers. I imagine many of those same scribes got a good column or two about Pete's play over the course his storied career. The man loved to talk baseball and it's certain he provided them some colorful quotes. But those guys didn't want him in their club. It's their private club and they have the right to keep him out. As you mentioned Doc, his exclusion never seemed justified given all the other flawed men who they did allow in. Eighteen months after his ban from baseball they made a resolution especially for Rose and passed Rule 3(E) in February 1991. They didn't have to do it. His lifetime ban from MLB wasn't enough for them so they did something I consider spiteful and petty. They piled on. They kicked the guy when he was down.
I was 8 years old in 1963, the year Pete won Rookie of the Year. He was a local hero. By the time I turned 20 in 1975, he was a god. By 1989, when it all ended for him and I was a father of two, he was a mess. I grew up loving this guy and since I'm from Cincinnati's West Side too, felt a special connection. Most of those around here who knew him, loved watching him play but saw that apart from baseball he was at sea. As he is today.
For all the years we had watching this most entertaining player do his thing, for all the thrills, all the hits and the hustle, the BBWAA should right their wrong and let him in.
I boycotted baseball when they changed the rules to keep him out of the Hall - I could always forgive his lack of character and his gambling because he was the most exciting player I ever saw. After he admitted to statutory rape I can no longer support him and have gone back to watching baseball
Nope, broke the Single Rule posted in every clubhouse,serial liar,sociopath?,,was she really only 14 ? Or 16 as Pete claims?, sport is better off without Pete,useful as object lesson is his maximum value
Nice take, Doc. I too have struggled trying to connect Pete the quintessential baseball player and Pete with his failures nearly everywhere else in life. But regarding Cooperstown, could it be this simple: Pete the baseball player is eligible for the Hall, while Pete the Manager retains a lifetime ban. Would this allow both MLB and Pete to claim victory?
This is a golden opportunity for Rob Manfred, right now, and the game of baseball — a game that used to be the national pastime but has now seen football, basketball and even soccer overtake it in popularity.
Want to get MLB front and center on ESPN and the newspapers, smack dab in the middle of the NFL and college football season? Reinstate Pete Rose. It’ll be news for weeks, as it will spawn stories and opinion pieces galore.
Want to gain back fans MLB might have lost with canceled seasons, strikes and the like? Reinstate Pete Rose. Many of those fans likely followed him as a player, and feel as many do that he’s served his penance.
Want to reverse your legacy as a ineffectual, staid, hypocritical and horrible commissioner? Reinstate Pete Rose. Become a forgiving, feeling and empathetic commissioner, and create a whole new legacy. Earn MLB fans just through the act of forgiveness.
In other words, Manfred has a marketing opportunity here — in reinstating Rose — that would actually benefit him, and baseball, much more than it would Rose. And, actually, would strip Rose of a lot of his current notoriety in the process.
He’d be a fool not to do it.
He’s also a fool if he thinks current players and coaches aren’t using spouses, girlfriends, friends, family members, etc., to place bets on games now through apps like Draft Kings, BetMGM, Barstool Sports and the like. There’s no longer the need for bookies as intermediaries … simply find yourself a family member in Indiana, New Jersey, soon Ohio, etc., where sports betting is legal, and have them place the bet on the app under their account. If you are naive enough to think that’s not happening now, in all sports, then I don’t know what to tell ya.
Manfred’s got nothing to lose by reinstating Rose. And if the writers or HOF committee end up not putting Rose in the HOF, then Manfred can wash his hands of it and say, “look, I gave him the opportunity. The HOF decision was not up to me,” and walk away still smelling like a rose.
If I’m MLB marketing right now, this is what I’m telling him.
As far as my personal thoughts on Rose and reinstatement? I say let him in, but if he doesn’t, life will go on and this debate will continue probably long after we’re all gone.
Pete was my sports hero growing up. I was 10 years old when my Dad took me to the famous All Star game that he ended by bowling over Ray Fosse to win the game in extra innings. I was in the stands for his hit # 3000 and with my Dad and my best friend for hit #4192. My daughter's middle name is Rose. So it took a lot for me turn away from supporting him. But all of the lies, and all of his wanting only to make money off of the whole thing finally did me in. The biggest irony and hypocrisy is that he is banned for betting on baseball, but such bets are now legal in many MLB stadiums, including the Red's...as baseball now profits from the same gambling. Pete should be in the Hall of Fame, and recognized for his baseball career, but shouldn't be idolized or even respected as a person
Pete Rose is the most tragic sports figure in the history of Cincinnati and one of the most tragic in the history of professional sports. If you came on the scene in the late 80's, you missed the impression he made on a young generation of Cincinnatians in the 60's and 70's, hitting and hustling his way to pennants and World Series championships in his hometown. Based strictly on his play, no one deserves to be in the hall more than Pete Rose. He personifies baseball.
But he hung out with a bunch of slugs and he bet on baseball. No excuses; the rules are on the clubhouse wall. However, It should matter that Pete only bet on the Reds to win, never to lose. He never "threw" a game, a la the Chicago Black Sox. If he lost, he lost the bet but the outcome of the game was not changed. He committed an egregious and intolerable violation, but it did not harm others. One could reason that he has served sufficient time for his actions. He did not throw a game.
Baseball has no right to tell a man how to live after baseball, but in the court of public opinion, Rose's remorse could be taken more seriously if it were accompanied by some effort to reform. He may see the error in his ways but he has made no effort to change. He won't. Instead he begs for forgiveness and signs a deal to place the first bet at the Hard Rock Casino. Mind-numbingly tragic. Will Rob Manfred set aside Rose's lifestyle? If he is to find a path to forgiveness, he must consider only Rose's violation and subsequent lying and determine if he has served enough time for his transgressions. Continued punishment based solely on Pete's lifestyle is not justified. As distasteful as it is, Pete's lifestyle since leaving baseball has no bearing on his actions as the Reds manager.
In the end, baseball and its fans are the losers. For 30 plus years baseball has missed the contribution of one it's iconic legends. Imagine how much more interesting baseball would have been if Rose was involved as a manager or a commentator during that time. No one talks baseball like Pete Rose. Thankfully we got to experience the class act and splendid commentary of Joe Morgan.
This is a messy situation. It's human, and it's tragic. And the time has come to put it behind us. Unabashedly, Rose just wants to get into the HOF before he dies. And baseball, with warts of its own, should decide that one of it's greatest stars has served his time and let him in, with all his imperfection.
Doc, I recall you doing an article and some video with him a few years back where you visited his childhood home and the baseball fields he grew up on etc. Curious how/if that 1:1 kind of experience might have changed your opinion of him before and after? Side note- I remember the question of who dresses you/picks out your outfits being my favorite part of that!
I fully agree with you. This is a vendetta by MLB against Rose. He was blamed for Giamatti's early death by Dowd and his friends. In football Josh Shaw got suspended 21 games for betting on football. Rose was suspended 33 years and counting. Rose has a gambling addiction just like a number of baseball players had drug addictions. Baseball got them help and then reinstated them, some multiple times. I would never try to defend Rose's private life but when you pair it with some of the members of the Hall it is comparable.
"it would return to Rose the dignity and honor he earned as a player"...(as a player) is the cruxt of why he should today, be reinstated.
Short and to the point,admit him to the HOF for his accomplishments on the field, continue his ban from baseball as an employee of any team.
Enough is more than enough....give him some peace and let Cincinnati Celebrate him again.
Paul, murderers suffer the consequences long after getting of prison. It's a false equivalency. Nice try, though. Insert smiling emoji.