Paul...ok, we need to meet and enjoy a bourbon or a beer and discuss all the similarities we share in life. First, I love bourbon, golf and pro/college sports (and side with you on the political front). Second, my little brother was born with Downs Syndrome and because of that, I consider myself (as you probably do) one of the luckiest people on the planet to have lived with such a joy in my life. Thirdly, Anna Maria Island is one of my fav places on earth, second to St. John, VI. Love Robinson Preserve but like Perico Preserve just a mile west of it, even more. If you haven't visited it yet, put it on the list...smaller but gorgeous. Last but not least, I am neighbors with the Furball. Can't beat that! Let's get him and you over to our Tiki Bar for a brewskee next Spring!
Good topic, Doc, one I'm glad you brought up. Should Joey retire? Hmmmm....
My thought is that he is rehabbing with his usual thorough intensity and aggressiveness, determined to see whether it was his shoulder that ruined his numbers last year, or-gasp- age and its typical drop-off. I think he's pumped to get into camp to find out. If he sees some things that give him hope, he plays; if he struggles badly through spring, he could indeed hang it up, probably after a month or 2 of the reg season.
The thing is, he knows that a couple strong seasons really up his chances at the HOF. That's gotta be playing on his mind. He really wants that. He needs to get to 425-440 in HRs, and keep the BA right around .300. to pry the door open. He needs good numbers next year, and another year of decent production. He's deteriorated some already, especially baserunning. Has he deteriorated too much to ever be anything close to his younger self again? Only time will tell.
I wonder what happened to Sonny Grey, Suarez, Barnhart, Winker, Mahle, monies? Saved a bundle there and what did they do today, sign another .200 hitting UT player.
Doc, votto is realy owed 25 mill plus 7 mill buyout. Even the Reds arent stupid enough to pay him beyond that. And he may say all the right stuff but no way he walks away from that money. Moose and him will both be off the books after 2023 season. There may be a glimmer of hope after that.
Nov 10, 2022·edited Nov 10, 2022Liked by Paul Daugherty
Barry Sanders, Sandy Koufax.
I'm Votto's age, and I've been a huge fan of Votto and TML since 07. It feels like yesterday I went to see Volquez vanquish the mighty Yankees at old their old stadium and Votto was the bright spot in a lineup of those aging loafs. It was all ahead of him. And me, I guess. I've had issues with his overthinking at the plate in the last half decade, but he's a Reds great up there with any other.
He has so much money. I hope he wants to keep his hitting dignity more than his paychecks.
A guy I played hs ball with was a great pitcher (cue springsteen). I ripped his ass the only time we faced each other on the college field - he thanked me by plunking me with 93 on the thigh on a 40 degree day (like I'm gonna move out of the way?). He said something in his late 20s like, "I've spent so much of my life with my hand wrapped around a baseball, and now it feels like baseball's hand is wrapped around me". He probably stole that from somebody, but there is something there.
I admire guys who got out before it got them. (Talking about you Doc!) Like you, Votto has earned the right to do whatever he pleases. But if he takes a cut and the Reds don't spend it wisely it's not on him.
Man, that is a great song of the day. Very Chris Isaak-like. Also, if you ever have a chance to see Chris Isaak in concert, take it. Amazing showman, funny as can be, too. Sounds as good as his records.
I hope Votto retires. I don't think he will. But the Reds could use the money. I also wish Moose would retire.
Just because he’s one of the best players to wear a Reds uniform (and yes, I agree with you on that) doesn’t make him likable or make him a team player. There were years there where Joey was only concerned about one thing, his batting average. He could have adjusted his swing to not always be a dead pull hitter. He has the talent to do that. As far as the albatross contract I guess I can’t place all the blame on Joey for taking that. Most of that blame needs to be placed on Bob Castellini, but if Joey was a true team player he could have renegotiated his contract. The Reds can’t afford to be signing players to contracts like that. They could’ve done a 4 or 5 year deal. I rank Joeys ten year contract as one of Castellini's poorer decisions. Not as stupid as the Homer Bailey contract though.
WAIT! I take offense to you calling Joey a dead pull hitter. Dude used to smash to left center. SMASH
My beef was his half swing K. That was the problem. The late, "oops. maybe this is a K pitch I should try to foul off, maybe I should.....oops. By me" 1/2 swing.
I think it's fair to also consider when that deal was signed. The date was 4/2/2012. He would have been a career .315ish hitter at that point. Won the MVP in 2010. Played in 161 games in 2011 while also leading the NL in doubles (40), walks (110), and OBP (.416). He also made the All Star team both of those years.
The team was also winning much more then. This contract was locking down one of the league's top hitters for (hopefully) the rest of his career. I don't fault the front office for inking this deal. I think most people knew even back then that the last few years of the contract might be painful.
I don't know if he's a team player or not, but I find him extremely likable and easy to root for. I hope he's able perform closer to his 2021 numbers this year. That would be great for everyone!
I just don’t find him to be a likable guy. Just my opinion. Also a point of contention with my 30 year old daughter who has her walls of the tv room in her house plastered with Votto stuff.
I found Todd Frazier extremely likable but I guess there’s not a lot of players that magnanimous
You still may not have liked him any better, but I suspect we'd view his contract much differently if we didn't get served up "baseball on a budget" all season from the front office this year. I get it...we're being told they can't afford high payroll and they have one guy accounting for like 20% of their current payroll. I'll tell you whose money bothers me worse than Votto's...Moustakas. That dude is straight up robbing this team!
I loved Frazier, too. Dude was awesome. Johnny Gomes was fun to watch back then, too. I miss the squad from the early 2010's. It was a great time to be a Reds fan.
My guess is that Votto does come back and if healthy - always a big if - is a nice part of a still bad, but very young team. Certainly his best days are behind him but he can still fit in as a nice piece to the rebuilding puzzle. Curiously with all of the Reds minor league depth there doesn't seem to be any prospect at 1B, so while Votto's more limited now, there doesn't seem to be anyone waiting in the wings whose development is being stunted because Votto is still being run out there almost every day.
With the DH now in place and his (and I am assuming this as I've never had access to the clubhouse) positive impact on younger players, I don't think him completing his contract is a selfish thing on his part, or a negative thing for the Reds. It looks like he'll roll off the payroll about the time the team (assuming at least some of the touted youngsters pan out) regains some level of competitiveness. I think he'd be okay with that, mentoring the young guys and then enjoying watching what they do. I know I would be as a daily fan.
Votto has been a class act for his tenure with the team, and I love the idea that he'll retire a Red (if that indeed happens). I don't think signing him to the deal he signed was in the team's best interest from a competitive standpoint (see STL letting Pujols walk for those 5-6 years) but it's what we did. It wasn't Joey's fault, and he was MVP caliber for at least a few of those yeas. So, I've certainly enjoyed him playing for the Reds all of these years.
Bench has been, and always will be, my favorite Red (yes, I was an impressionable kid in the 70's when Bench was at his best and those days are indelibly etched in my nostalgic noggin), but Votto has moved up to a close second. And that appreciation is from a much older man now, who still sees baseball through the lenses of a kid's eyes, and can enjoy the guy for who he seems to be - intelligent, competitive and honest, and wholly a Cincinnati Red.
Alex McGarry moved up to AAA last year, I think. He could be a decent 1B.
Votto is absolutely my favorite Red. It was Pete when I was younger of course. Maybe Barry for a bit...but Votto is it for sure now. I hope he has a nice bounceback year in '23. You're right that his deal was a stretch for a team like the Reds but I'm glad they did it. I've enjoyed watching him all these years and I hope he stays involved with the organization in some capacity once he does choose to retire.
Nov 10, 2022·edited Nov 10, 2022Liked by Paul Daugherty
I think (or at least hope) that the new rules regarding player positions and the shift will boost Votto's value as a hitter. Hopefully the open space in short-RF and up the middle will rejuvenate his bat. If not, then hopefully he will make good on that 2016 quote, and get out with his dignity intact.
Great Dickens quote, but let’s not forget Frances “Fanny” Trollope who was not happy with the city’s pig-based economy when she visited in 1832 and wrote in her “Domestic Manners of Cincinnati:”
“If I determined upon a walk up Main-street, the chances were five hundred to one against my reaching the shady side without brushing by a snout fresh dipping from the kennel; when we had screwed our courage to the enterprise of mounting a certain noble-looking sugar-loaf hill, that promised pure air and a fine view, we found the brook we had to cross, at its foot, red with the stream from a pig slaughterhouse while our noses, instead of meeting ‘the thyme that loves the green hill’s breast,’ were greeted by odours that I will not describe, and which I heartily hope my readers cannot imagine.”
At any rate, I sometimes think Cincinnati “peaked” as a cultural and industrial center around 1850,—after that the railroads sort of left the city behind, making the riverboat-based economy irrelevant.
Great topic today, water cooler talk for sure. My guess is if Votto is healthy, he tries to run it back and end with a productive year. Should he do the latter and hang it up, like you said, Merry Christmas limited partners. You just received a dividend.
Paul...ok, we need to meet and enjoy a bourbon or a beer and discuss all the similarities we share in life. First, I love bourbon, golf and pro/college sports (and side with you on the political front). Second, my little brother was born with Downs Syndrome and because of that, I consider myself (as you probably do) one of the luckiest people on the planet to have lived with such a joy in my life. Thirdly, Anna Maria Island is one of my fav places on earth, second to St. John, VI. Love Robinson Preserve but like Perico Preserve just a mile west of it, even more. If you haven't visited it yet, put it on the list...smaller but gorgeous. Last but not least, I am neighbors with the Furball. Can't beat that! Let's get him and you over to our Tiki Bar for a brewskee next Spring!
Good topic, Doc, one I'm glad you brought up. Should Joey retire? Hmmmm....
My thought is that he is rehabbing with his usual thorough intensity and aggressiveness, determined to see whether it was his shoulder that ruined his numbers last year, or-gasp- age and its typical drop-off. I think he's pumped to get into camp to find out. If he sees some things that give him hope, he plays; if he struggles badly through spring, he could indeed hang it up, probably after a month or 2 of the reg season.
The thing is, he knows that a couple strong seasons really up his chances at the HOF. That's gotta be playing on his mind. He really wants that. He needs to get to 425-440 in HRs, and keep the BA right around .300. to pry the door open. He needs good numbers next year, and another year of decent production. He's deteriorated some already, especially baserunning. Has he deteriorated too much to ever be anything close to his younger self again? Only time will tell.
I wonder what happened to Sonny Grey, Suarez, Barnhart, Winker, Mahle, monies? Saved a bundle there and what did they do today, sign another .200 hitting UT player.
Doc, votto is realy owed 25 mill plus 7 mill buyout. Even the Reds arent stupid enough to pay him beyond that. And he may say all the right stuff but no way he walks away from that money. Moose and him will both be off the books after 2023 season. There may be a glimmer of hope after that.
Barry Sanders, Sandy Koufax.
I'm Votto's age, and I've been a huge fan of Votto and TML since 07. It feels like yesterday I went to see Volquez vanquish the mighty Yankees at old their old stadium and Votto was the bright spot in a lineup of those aging loafs. It was all ahead of him. And me, I guess. I've had issues with his overthinking at the plate in the last half decade, but he's a Reds great up there with any other.
He has so much money. I hope he wants to keep his hitting dignity more than his paychecks.
A guy I played hs ball with was a great pitcher (cue springsteen). I ripped his ass the only time we faced each other on the college field - he thanked me by plunking me with 93 on the thigh on a 40 degree day (like I'm gonna move out of the way?). He said something in his late 20s like, "I've spent so much of my life with my hand wrapped around a baseball, and now it feels like baseball's hand is wrapped around me". He probably stole that from somebody, but there is something there.
Also megatron retired way early.
Did you ever try, “Sitting in the Park” or “I do love you”, by Billy Stewart?
I admire guys who got out before it got them. (Talking about you Doc!) Like you, Votto has earned the right to do whatever he pleases. But if he takes a cut and the Reds don't spend it wisely it's not on him.
Man, that is a great song of the day. Very Chris Isaak-like. Also, if you ever have a chance to see Chris Isaak in concert, take it. Amazing showman, funny as can be, too. Sounds as good as his records.
I hope Votto retires. I don't think he will. But the Reds could use the money. I also wish Moose would retire.
Votto won’t be leaving any money on the table. Joey cares about three people.
He, himself and I.
Is Joey an elite player ? Not anymore. One more year and that albatross will be off the Reds neck
Never understood the animosity toward one of the best players to ever wear a Reds uniform.
Just because he’s one of the best players to wear a Reds uniform (and yes, I agree with you on that) doesn’t make him likable or make him a team player. There were years there where Joey was only concerned about one thing, his batting average. He could have adjusted his swing to not always be a dead pull hitter. He has the talent to do that. As far as the albatross contract I guess I can’t place all the blame on Joey for taking that. Most of that blame needs to be placed on Bob Castellini, but if Joey was a true team player he could have renegotiated his contract. The Reds can’t afford to be signing players to contracts like that. They could’ve done a 4 or 5 year deal. I rank Joeys ten year contract as one of Castellini's poorer decisions. Not as stupid as the Homer Bailey contract though.
Just my opinion
WAIT! I take offense to you calling Joey a dead pull hitter. Dude used to smash to left center. SMASH
My beef was his half swing K. That was the problem. The late, "oops. maybe this is a K pitch I should try to foul off, maybe I should.....oops. By me" 1/2 swing.
I think it's fair to also consider when that deal was signed. The date was 4/2/2012. He would have been a career .315ish hitter at that point. Won the MVP in 2010. Played in 161 games in 2011 while also leading the NL in doubles (40), walks (110), and OBP (.416). He also made the All Star team both of those years.
The team was also winning much more then. This contract was locking down one of the league's top hitters for (hopefully) the rest of his career. I don't fault the front office for inking this deal. I think most people knew even back then that the last few years of the contract might be painful.
I don't know if he's a team player or not, but I find him extremely likable and easy to root for. I hope he's able perform closer to his 2021 numbers this year. That would be great for everyone!
Point taken and agreed on contract.
I just don’t find him to be a likable guy. Just my opinion. Also a point of contention with my 30 year old daughter who has her walls of the tv room in her house plastered with Votto stuff.
I found Todd Frazier extremely likable but I guess there’s not a lot of players that magnanimous
Also, thanks for being civil in your reponse
You still may not have liked him any better, but I suspect we'd view his contract much differently if we didn't get served up "baseball on a budget" all season from the front office this year. I get it...we're being told they can't afford high payroll and they have one guy accounting for like 20% of their current payroll. I'll tell you whose money bothers me worse than Votto's...Moustakas. That dude is straight up robbing this team!
I loved Frazier, too. Dude was awesome. Johnny Gomes was fun to watch back then, too. I miss the squad from the early 2010's. It was a great time to be a Reds fan.
Holy 💩
Forgot about Moose
That was another turd signing by Castellini
My guess is that Votto does come back and if healthy - always a big if - is a nice part of a still bad, but very young team. Certainly his best days are behind him but he can still fit in as a nice piece to the rebuilding puzzle. Curiously with all of the Reds minor league depth there doesn't seem to be any prospect at 1B, so while Votto's more limited now, there doesn't seem to be anyone waiting in the wings whose development is being stunted because Votto is still being run out there almost every day.
With the DH now in place and his (and I am assuming this as I've never had access to the clubhouse) positive impact on younger players, I don't think him completing his contract is a selfish thing on his part, or a negative thing for the Reds. It looks like he'll roll off the payroll about the time the team (assuming at least some of the touted youngsters pan out) regains some level of competitiveness. I think he'd be okay with that, mentoring the young guys and then enjoying watching what they do. I know I would be as a daily fan.
Votto has been a class act for his tenure with the team, and I love the idea that he'll retire a Red (if that indeed happens). I don't think signing him to the deal he signed was in the team's best interest from a competitive standpoint (see STL letting Pujols walk for those 5-6 years) but it's what we did. It wasn't Joey's fault, and he was MVP caliber for at least a few of those yeas. So, I've certainly enjoyed him playing for the Reds all of these years.
Bench has been, and always will be, my favorite Red (yes, I was an impressionable kid in the 70's when Bench was at his best and those days are indelibly etched in my nostalgic noggin), but Votto has moved up to a close second. And that appreciation is from a much older man now, who still sees baseball through the lenses of a kid's eyes, and can enjoy the guy for who he seems to be - intelligent, competitive and honest, and wholly a Cincinnati Red.
Alex McGarry moved up to AAA last year, I think. He could be a decent 1B.
Votto is absolutely my favorite Red. It was Pete when I was younger of course. Maybe Barry for a bit...but Votto is it for sure now. I hope he has a nice bounceback year in '23. You're right that his deal was a stretch for a team like the Reds but I'm glad they did it. I've enjoyed watching him all these years and I hope he stays involved with the organization in some capacity once he does choose to retire.
I think (or at least hope) that the new rules regarding player positions and the shift will boost Votto's value as a hitter. Hopefully the open space in short-RF and up the middle will rejuvenate his bat. If not, then hopefully he will make good on that 2016 quote, and get out with his dignity intact.
Excellent post.
Great Dickens quote, but let’s not forget Frances “Fanny” Trollope who was not happy with the city’s pig-based economy when she visited in 1832 and wrote in her “Domestic Manners of Cincinnati:”
“If I determined upon a walk up Main-street, the chances were five hundred to one against my reaching the shady side without brushing by a snout fresh dipping from the kennel; when we had screwed our courage to the enterprise of mounting a certain noble-looking sugar-loaf hill, that promised pure air and a fine view, we found the brook we had to cross, at its foot, red with the stream from a pig slaughterhouse while our noses, instead of meeting ‘the thyme that loves the green hill’s breast,’ were greeted by odours that I will not describe, and which I heartily hope my readers cannot imagine.”
At any rate, I sometimes think Cincinnati “peaked” as a cultural and industrial center around 1850,—after that the railroads sort of left the city behind, making the riverboat-based economy irrelevant.
I can’t see Votto leaving money on the table.
I would however play Stephenson at 1st base and DH Votto.
Votto has made it clear he does not want to DH
If/when Joey does retire, I hope the Reds hire him as a broadcaster. He did an amazing job while in the Reds booth this year.
Great topic today, water cooler talk for sure. My guess is if Votto is healthy, he tries to run it back and end with a productive year. Should he do the latter and hang it up, like you said, Merry Christmas limited partners. You just received a dividend.