OK, skipping past my golf cart "tongue in cheek" comment earlier, there are 2 serious issues that nobody has touched on. One, the supply of lithium is finite and, as demands increase logarithmically over the next decades, the estimated amount left on earth is roughly 70 years. Chile has the most, then Australia and India. They become the next Middle East on the energy power map, to an extent. Also, the increased demand for electricity will be a huge struggle to meet. Nuclear power plants, with the most dangerous by-products on earth, will probably come back in vogue again, as the public demands shortcuts to cheap power. NOT good. Right now electric cars are the new toys of the middle to upper classes; those in the inner city who would benefit the most from pollution free, quiet equipment will be the last ones to be able to afford one. And the older ones are expensive maintenance nightmares. I think electric cars have great potential, and I'm a big fan, but there are many issues that need to be fixed before we go head over heels in this direction.
Well said, Greg. By the time new EV’s are more accessible to everyone, the cost of electricity will rise just as gasoline did. Massive amounts of taxes will need to be collected on each EV charge for road maintenance and improvements, and electrical infrastructure. J Kilowatt Co won’t pay for that. J Kilowatt Co will lobby governments to do that. Sure, an EV charge is 5 bucks now but, in 1970, gas was 36 cents a gallon. Anyone think an EV charge will be immune to increases from traders, retailers, and local, city, state, and federal governments? No way.
I drive an electric golf cart sometimes on the course. I do it to save the planet. Plus, I find a lot more golf balls, which reduces lost golf ball pollution. And I'm less tired when I get done, which means I eat less when I get home, which saves the lives of cows, pigs, and soybeans. The only bad thing is it allows me to drink beer while playing, which creates a lot of belches, which is air pollution. Plus I cuss more, 'cuz I'm less tired, and that's a serious form of air pollution, too. So, all in all, in the end, it's probably an even trade off. Oh, well.
(1) I am always puzzled by the “government bad, free enterprise is the greatest” type folks. Someone has already pointed out how there was rampant fraud/collusion wrt emissions and the EPA (set up by Nixon!) led to real tangible changes. Without some rules, corporates will not care about “doing good” ever. They need to be dragged along.
Ironic that we are having this debate on the Internet, which is a WHOLLY GOVT FUNDED enterprise. Go look up DARPA and the history of the web.
(2) EVs should have “atleast a range of X miles” - I have been following this debate on various forums for the past 10 years. This is a moving goal post. I remember when the first set of EVs hit 200 miles. People started making up use cases where they needed atleast 250 miles for it to be viable. Then 300 miles. Now some vehicles offer 300 but apparently goal post has moved to 500 miles. As if in todays gas car, you drive 500 miles non stop.
with that said, two legit points : (I) EV price point is high. So early adopters have to be affluent. (ii) need better charging infrastructure. Little bit of a chicken/egg issue which will get better over next 5-10 years. (iii) electric grid needs more renewables. Again, work in progress.
Fascinated with electric cars- at least fir my 5 mile/day commute- as for places like California mandates- they have black outs when too many air conditioners are on already, what am I missing
I'm def interested...but Jay makes a great point about this country's electrical grid and if it could even withstand the increase in everyone (or even 50%) going to EV's. Personally, like others have mentioned, would need to see mileage range increased and more convenient charging stations to support the need. Price will certainly come down at some point...kinda like wanting that plasma tv back in the day...I'll wait it out a bit.
Well done “infotorial” to a fellow MC Bearcat and Hemingway! Pretty positive (or at least respectful) feedback in the comments too. Like a lot of others here, I believe in progress but am on the fence about cost, EV range and availability to charge on the go. Plus when I look at a lot of the newer EVs, a tear comes to my eye; Teslas excluded, but definitely thinking of the EV Mustang (or is it just a bigger Pontiac Vibe?!)
I did. It looks like a Ford Probe had sex with an Oldsmobile Aurora and the Taycan popped out of a tailpipe 9 months later. The front end of the Turbo S version bares a strong resemblance to a Saturn.
Oddly, the Chevy Blazer EV pictures I have seen seem to show an almost normal looking SUV. Very refreshing.
Just like anything else in life I feel a balance is what's best here. There are some things EV's excel at, and some things they don't...at least yet. It shouldn't be controversial to try to make them more common and more accessible for most folks. I use the same argument for solar and wind generated power. They have flaws and won't likely ever become our sole sources of energy but that's ok! Why can't we continue to try to improve all of these technologies to at least decrease our usage of fossil fuels? Why do some people act like that's such a bad thing? I think EV's can be a nice supplement to our overall conservation efforts without being frowned upon. The only reason conservation is a bad word is because of politics. We can be more green without going overboard...and I don't see why anyone would oppose that.
Upgrading the grid and lowering emissions can be done at the same time. Improving these technologies is a worthwhile pursuit. It does not have to be stop doing one thing and start doing another. Balance is key.
Personally, I would love to do my part to be more green and go electric. I will as soon as two obstacles are overcome. First is the need for a 500+ mile range to accommodate our annual long road trips back to Cinti which will always be home. And for condo dwellers like us, it's not trivial to just go and install "home" charging stations. We're currently looking into that where we live and need to figure out: (1) we probably don't have sufficient electric feed into our buildings to meet demand, (2) while it's a common space investment, how to allocate the infrastructure expense when only some unit owners will want EV's, (3) how much electric infrastructure do we add now vs. later when short/long term adoption rates are only a guess.
Thank you Nate for bringing this inside knowledge to the table. And so appreciative to have Doc back. And with topics like this, seems like he has even more freedom to both enlighten and entertain us.
I'm glad you enjoyed the article. A few Level II chargers will not require panel or transformer upgrades at your multi-family property. Consider the load for HVAC, cooking appliances, and lights. A lot of building codes require single and multi-family units to be pre-wired for EV charging. You could consider this a simple amenity for residents and it won't cost that much.
I got a RAV4 Prime about a year ago. It has a 50 mile all electric range. But the total combined range is around 600 miles on a full battery and tank. It has been a great choice and will pay back the investment from my pickup that I traded it in for in about 3 years. Also, I find driving all electric to be much more pleasant.
Our next vehicle we have ordered is all electric (has deposits on the Fisker Ocean and Chevy Blazer EV.) For our life style, one ICE and one Electric is the right mix. And I suspect will be that way for atleast the next decade plus. Too many remote trips up into Idaho and Montana for us to drop the gas vehicle.
Anyway, wish it wasn't a political statement to drive an EV. I am not virtuous cause I drive one and you aren't an jerk if you don't.
Hybrids, especially the RAV4 Prime, are very efficient and an excellent choice for those on the fence. Keep the gas for long trips, get the EV for local. It's a great balance.
Thanks Nate! I'm a long time Republican who preaches the value of EVs. I'm so tired of the rhetoric that is regurgitated and shared again and again by people who haven't even seen one. We're a three car family. I have a two seater sports car and a Jeep. Both cost me roughly 38¢ per mile to fuel. My wife drives an EV 6. It's quicker than my sports car, has technology out the wazoo, and only costs 6¢ per mile when charged at home. They aren't for everyone yet. But they are pretty fantastic for many!
And if you drive less than about 50 mile per day, you can just charge overnight on a regular outlet - no special home install needed. Love my Tesla Model 3. I don't think I'll ever go back to an ICE car.
I have read that China is designing cars with batteries that are swapped at a "gas station". Sounds like a good idea. Pull in. Have some type of mechanism to swap out the battery. Pay the man Aunt Bea. Drive away. Faster than charging.
This is definitely an emerging business and not just in China. If we ever get to the point that race cars are EV only, this could be part of a pit stop. I still think charging is the best way.
Thanks for branching out from Sports into the rest of the world!
I would have an EV if there was more range and more Charging stations. Before anybody speaks on this topic, they ought to at least drive a Tesla or other EV.
I also work on the electrical infrastructure side - I respect your opinion here, but the bigger issue to me is the supply side. Supply of electric required for a substantial number of EVs just doesn't exist. Not that it couldn't exist, but the distribution "grid" is far from ready for prime time. California already has issues with supply and has already asked residents to charge their vehicles on select times of the day.
Overzealous changes for green initiatives aren't helping the issue any either. Not enough windfarms or solar arrays to make up for traditional power generation at this point in time.
I'm sure the zeal for Capital Gains overrides the zeal for Green initiatives. But I do share your concerns for the effect this will have on the power grid and the rates we pay for home electricity.
Doc. On a micro “EV” level, how is the battery powered lawn mower working out for you?
OK, skipping past my golf cart "tongue in cheek" comment earlier, there are 2 serious issues that nobody has touched on. One, the supply of lithium is finite and, as demands increase logarithmically over the next decades, the estimated amount left on earth is roughly 70 years. Chile has the most, then Australia and India. They become the next Middle East on the energy power map, to an extent. Also, the increased demand for electricity will be a huge struggle to meet. Nuclear power plants, with the most dangerous by-products on earth, will probably come back in vogue again, as the public demands shortcuts to cheap power. NOT good. Right now electric cars are the new toys of the middle to upper classes; those in the inner city who would benefit the most from pollution free, quiet equipment will be the last ones to be able to afford one. And the older ones are expensive maintenance nightmares. I think electric cars have great potential, and I'm a big fan, but there are many issues that need to be fixed before we go head over heels in this direction.
Well said, Greg. By the time new EV’s are more accessible to everyone, the cost of electricity will rise just as gasoline did. Massive amounts of taxes will need to be collected on each EV charge for road maintenance and improvements, and electrical infrastructure. J Kilowatt Co won’t pay for that. J Kilowatt Co will lobby governments to do that. Sure, an EV charge is 5 bucks now but, in 1970, gas was 36 cents a gallon. Anyone think an EV charge will be immune to increases from traders, retailers, and local, city, state, and federal governments? No way.
I drive an electric golf cart sometimes on the course. I do it to save the planet. Plus, I find a lot more golf balls, which reduces lost golf ball pollution. And I'm less tired when I get done, which means I eat less when I get home, which saves the lives of cows, pigs, and soybeans. The only bad thing is it allows me to drink beer while playing, which creates a lot of belches, which is air pollution. Plus I cuss more, 'cuz I'm less tired, and that's a serious form of air pollution, too. So, all in all, in the end, it's probably an even trade off. Oh, well.
Some thoughts
(1) I am always puzzled by the “government bad, free enterprise is the greatest” type folks. Someone has already pointed out how there was rampant fraud/collusion wrt emissions and the EPA (set up by Nixon!) led to real tangible changes. Without some rules, corporates will not care about “doing good” ever. They need to be dragged along.
Ironic that we are having this debate on the Internet, which is a WHOLLY GOVT FUNDED enterprise. Go look up DARPA and the history of the web.
(2) EVs should have “atleast a range of X miles” - I have been following this debate on various forums for the past 10 years. This is a moving goal post. I remember when the first set of EVs hit 200 miles. People started making up use cases where they needed atleast 250 miles for it to be viable. Then 300 miles. Now some vehicles offer 300 but apparently goal post has moved to 500 miles. As if in todays gas car, you drive 500 miles non stop.
with that said, two legit points : (I) EV price point is high. So early adopters have to be affluent. (ii) need better charging infrastructure. Little bit of a chicken/egg issue which will get better over next 5-10 years. (iii) electric grid needs more renewables. Again, work in progress.
Fascinated with electric cars- at least fir my 5 mile/day commute- as for places like California mandates- they have black outs when too many air conditioners are on already, what am I missing
I'm def interested...but Jay makes a great point about this country's electrical grid and if it could even withstand the increase in everyone (or even 50%) going to EV's. Personally, like others have mentioned, would need to see mileage range increased and more convenient charging stations to support the need. Price will certainly come down at some point...kinda like wanting that plasma tv back in the day...I'll wait it out a bit.
Well done “infotorial” to a fellow MC Bearcat and Hemingway! Pretty positive (or at least respectful) feedback in the comments too. Like a lot of others here, I believe in progress but am on the fence about cost, EV range and availability to charge on the go. Plus when I look at a lot of the newer EVs, a tear comes to my eye; Teslas excluded, but definitely thinking of the EV Mustang (or is it just a bigger Pontiac Vibe?!)
Yeah, i've forever wondered why all electric vehicles are so ugly??? It makes me think the manufacturers don't want to sell very many. Very strange.
Check out this car - https://www.porsche.com/usa/models/taycan/taycan-models/taycan-turbo/
I did. It looks like a Ford Probe had sex with an Oldsmobile Aurora and the Taycan popped out of a tailpipe 9 months later. The front end of the Turbo S version bares a strong resemblance to a Saturn.
Oddly, the Chevy Blazer EV pictures I have seen seem to show an almost normal looking SUV. Very refreshing.
Great read. Column and comments.
Just like anything else in life I feel a balance is what's best here. There are some things EV's excel at, and some things they don't...at least yet. It shouldn't be controversial to try to make them more common and more accessible for most folks. I use the same argument for solar and wind generated power. They have flaws and won't likely ever become our sole sources of energy but that's ok! Why can't we continue to try to improve all of these technologies to at least decrease our usage of fossil fuels? Why do some people act like that's such a bad thing? I think EV's can be a nice supplement to our overall conservation efforts without being frowned upon. The only reason conservation is a bad word is because of politics. We can be more green without going overboard...and I don't see why anyone would oppose that.
Upgrading the grid and lowering emissions can be done at the same time. Improving these technologies is a worthwhile pursuit. It does not have to be stop doing one thing and start doing another. Balance is key.
Personally, I would love to do my part to be more green and go electric. I will as soon as two obstacles are overcome. First is the need for a 500+ mile range to accommodate our annual long road trips back to Cinti which will always be home. And for condo dwellers like us, it's not trivial to just go and install "home" charging stations. We're currently looking into that where we live and need to figure out: (1) we probably don't have sufficient electric feed into our buildings to meet demand, (2) while it's a common space investment, how to allocate the infrastructure expense when only some unit owners will want EV's, (3) how much electric infrastructure do we add now vs. later when short/long term adoption rates are only a guess.
Thank you Nate for bringing this inside knowledge to the table. And so appreciative to have Doc back. And with topics like this, seems like he has even more freedom to both enlighten and entertain us.
I'm glad you enjoyed the article. A few Level II chargers will not require panel or transformer upgrades at your multi-family property. Consider the load for HVAC, cooking appliances, and lights. A lot of building codes require single and multi-family units to be pre-wired for EV charging. You could consider this a simple amenity for residents and it won't cost that much.
I view EV like any other product - let the market decide. The government shouldn't be mandating it.
Agree.
I got a RAV4 Prime about a year ago. It has a 50 mile all electric range. But the total combined range is around 600 miles on a full battery and tank. It has been a great choice and will pay back the investment from my pickup that I traded it in for in about 3 years. Also, I find driving all electric to be much more pleasant.
Our next vehicle we have ordered is all electric (has deposits on the Fisker Ocean and Chevy Blazer EV.) For our life style, one ICE and one Electric is the right mix. And I suspect will be that way for atleast the next decade plus. Too many remote trips up into Idaho and Montana for us to drop the gas vehicle.
Anyway, wish it wasn't a political statement to drive an EV. I am not virtuous cause I drive one and you aren't an jerk if you don't.
Hybrids, especially the RAV4 Prime, are very efficient and an excellent choice for those on the fence. Keep the gas for long trips, get the EV for local. It's a great balance.
Thanks Nate! I'm a long time Republican who preaches the value of EVs. I'm so tired of the rhetoric that is regurgitated and shared again and again by people who haven't even seen one. We're a three car family. I have a two seater sports car and a Jeep. Both cost me roughly 38¢ per mile to fuel. My wife drives an EV 6. It's quicker than my sports car, has technology out the wazoo, and only costs 6¢ per mile when charged at home. They aren't for everyone yet. But they are pretty fantastic for many!
You're on to something. I've got an EV and gas guzzler sports sedan. Also not a Democrat.
And if you drive less than about 50 mile per day, you can just charge overnight on a regular outlet - no special home install needed. Love my Tesla Model 3. I don't think I'll ever go back to an ICE car.
Great TML, Nate!
I have read that China is designing cars with batteries that are swapped at a "gas station". Sounds like a good idea. Pull in. Have some type of mechanism to swap out the battery. Pay the man Aunt Bea. Drive away. Faster than charging.
This is definitely an emerging business and not just in China. If we ever get to the point that race cars are EV only, this could be part of a pit stop. I still think charging is the best way.
Paul,
Thanks for branching out from Sports into the rest of the world!
I would have an EV if there was more range and more Charging stations. Before anybody speaks on this topic, they ought to at least drive a Tesla or other EV.
EV’s - a Good thing!
I also work on the electrical infrastructure side - I respect your opinion here, but the bigger issue to me is the supply side. Supply of electric required for a substantial number of EVs just doesn't exist. Not that it couldn't exist, but the distribution "grid" is far from ready for prime time. California already has issues with supply and has already asked residents to charge their vehicles on select times of the day.
Overzealous changes for green initiatives aren't helping the issue any either. Not enough windfarms or solar arrays to make up for traditional power generation at this point in time.
In my opinion, this is the cart before the horse.
I'm sure the zeal for Capital Gains overrides the zeal for Green initiatives. But I do share your concerns for the effect this will have on the power grid and the rates we pay for home electricity.
Imagine if your house electricity bill goes way up due to increased demand from EVs and you don't drive one. There will be hell to pay.